Echoes: Feminism
Echoes of the Factor - 06/22/07
Responses posted on 06/22/07
Comment Submitted by Brian Re: "TBF: Feminism":
I feel like I made my own version of Grindhouse..
I laughed, I cried, I wanted to take a pee break but I couldn't.... Perfect!!!
I loved how this turned out, especially since I got to make a two-parter TBF, and honestly, I've been really wanting to do something like this since the TBF site came online..
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Author's Correction: Submitted by Jacob Re: "TBF: Feminism (Part 1)":
The book I reference, "Are Men Really Necessary?," is actually titled, "Are Men Necessary?" Apologies on any confusion this may have caused.
Response From Brian: I didn't notice... Had you not said anything, I don't think anybody would've either...
[Marie: Soon as I read that, Jacob, I altered the title in TBF blog version of your article.]
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Comment Submitted by Jacob Re: "TBF: Feminism (Part 2)":
Er, just a bit of a typo, I think. I assume when you write, "After all, isn't that when we most loudly heard the voice of Gloria Steinem and her ilk proclaiming those of us not in possession of a penis to be considered second-class citizens?," that you actually mean, "After all, isn't that when we most loudly heard the voice of Gloria Steinem and her ilk proclaiming those of us not in possession of a penis not to be considered second-class citizens?" (or some similar inverted phrasing), correct?
Also, one amusing note: Hugh Hefner, Larry Flynt, et al. -- while being decried by some feminists (and embraced by others) -- are more liberal than even most of the liberal politicians. In fact, both of them (I believe; I'm dead certain about Hef, at least), are major supporters of "pro choice" and other women's organizations, and have wielded some large amounts of their considerable assets towards helping them out. It's unlikely that you'll ever see, "Sponsored by Hustler Magazine!" on the front page of Planned Parenthood, but it is an amusing anecdote to make a personal mental note of who one of the biggest men behind the curtain is (no pun about Flynt intended).
Also, nice essay. Interesting history, some good points, and clever narrative. God job, wot wot, and not really in opposition to my own, no matter how Brian would like to cast it that way. ;)
Response from Harlean:
Good observation, and I can see how the "second-class citizen" line could be interpreted as having contained a typo, but in fact I did mean it exactly the way it was written. That was a big part of the reason why the Feminist Movement of the 70's got as loud and ugly as it did, the fact that women were suddenly being told that the world thought of them as second-class citizens, and they should be grateful to NOW for bringing this to their attention because God knows all of that decent happy living they were doing, and focusing on the good of their families and not having to haul their asses out of bed to catch the morning train to a job that probably wasn't half as rewarding as hearing a child say "Mommy look what I made for you in school today!" could be, well, all of that had done terribly misleading things to the minds of so many women who up until that point had probably been thinking they were living pretty good lives. So the Steinems and Freidans of the world were kind enough to let them know that their lives did, in fact, totally suck because they weren't as good as any man in the eyes of the people who really mattered, those people being, um, well, complete strangers for the most part, but you know, those people's opinions matter FAR more than the opinions of the people who live with and love you, don't they?!
And yes, I agree with your take on the whole He Said She Said thing, since you and I are basically presenting two angles of the same story, that story being that the "feminists" of today are sadly lacking in both definition and direction.
And now I will sign off before I end up writing another 3000 words... ;)
Response From Brian: DAMN! I'm glad we came up with this idea. Marie and I are fuckin geniuses. Say it with me Marie: Woo!!
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Marie's thus far unofficial addition to this week's "Echoes" (because she was too busy/lazy to write anything this past week):
Since quotes are all the rage on this topic, I shall begin with one myself: "Enough ink has been spilled in the quarreling over feminism, now practically over, and perhaps we should say no more about it." -Simone de Beauvoir, Introduction, The Second Sex.
Perhaps enough has been said about feminism. The vast majority of the American population seems to have tired of this topic, save for Feminist Studies majors and Jacob and Harlean and Brian. In my mind, the particular cause of feminism and its historic denotations should be left behind. I'm not narrow-minded enough to think that the (arguably) inferior treatment of females is the be-all and end-all or even most important aspect in humankinds' struggle for equality. Sure, I feel that the institutionalized partiarchy of American society is keeping women down as a group, but so many women have benefitted from this and previous generations' battle for equal treatment of women. The glass ceiling has been shattered- in word if not in deed- and only time and education (and maybe a governmental shift back to secular liberalism) will let us fulfill our hard-won place alongside men.
The label of feminism should be retired. Not because there is universal gender equality nor because females are inherently inferior, but because every single human that exists suffers from exclusion and inequal treatment. Equality shouldn't be the sole fight of one faction; it should be a concerted movement of everyone. Women, men, the poor, the ill, the weak, etc. all share the goal of being heard and being respected. Why compartmentalize oppression? Do the Romani have a monopoly of suffering? The Jews? The deaf?
The oppressors that these groups rebel against have also suffered inequality. Perhaps not as blatant or prolonged mistreatment, but I'm willing to say that every individual with an active role in propagating discrimination against one or more of his fellow human beings has experienced a lack of power. If not because of ethnicity or beliefs, than simply because he or she was once a child. Every large political, religious, or other kind of system that I have heard of considers children as inferior and treats them as such. (This may be confusing things, but, philosophically, I agree that children are inferior to older individuals simply because they don't have comparable knowledge, experience, and reason. Those lacks of qualities shouldn't justify treating them as pets or annoyances or objects instead of the young people they are.) Thus, if changes are to be made concerning the treatment/mistreatment of a particular sect of people, changes will have to be made concerning pretty much every other aspect in human societies.
Everyone should unite in the fight for general equality. Call it "universal human rights" or "anthroism" or whatever, but factions like the feminists and gay rights activists and ethnic minorities should work together against every type of oppression together. Realistically, oppression may be impossible to abolish. Though I may be a dreamer I am far from being the only one (to paraphrase a poet-activist for equality), and dreamers are what began the successful civil rights movements throughout history.
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Comment/ Question Submitted by Jacob Re: "Soundboard: Heading into the home stretch":
Brian: "Congratulations to Harlean & Jacob on an exceptional TBF this week. Not only did they do a great job, they gave us the highest ratings of the season!!"
Jacob: No problemo. But ratings where?
Response from Brian: I'll have Marie explain it all to you later... Mainly cause I don't know either.
[Marie: TBF blog has a stat counter. I think that's what Brian was referring to.]
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Comment Submitted by Jacob Re: Harlean's Song: "Ode de Toilet":
Oh heavenly flying spaghetti monster, not country music!? That's just too far!
But seriously, this reminds me of a recent post I did on the ideal treatment of toilet seats based on game theory models to maximize equality. (Summary for people who might be scared away by equations and logic: the mathematically ideal situation exists when men lower the seat half the time (say, they don't lower it in the morning but they do at night).) It's
actually interesting reading, and very tongue-in-cheek, given the subject matter, doncha know.
Response from Brian: Okay, on the first part, let me just say this: Preach on!!! Did you read what Marie added on?:
[Marie: Awesome choice, HC! *smirk* I'm happy to have help opening these guys' minds to new genres. Variety is the spice of life, they say, and Brian's getting pretty bland. Brian! Don't take the CD player into the shower! *sigh* He needs a keeper sometimes.]
Brian: Okay, that hurt..
No, seriously, all bullshit aside.. That wasn't cool.
You want to make fun of me? I'm cool with that. Believe me, I've heard and felt alot worse from people over the years. So all this.. the jokes, the jabs, it's all fine with me.
But seriously don't ever...EVER!! insult my choices in music. And don't assume that everything I've shared is simply everything to me, cause if you think all this is all I am...
THEN YOU DON'T EVEN REALLY KNOW ME AT ALL...
Now I am sorry that I unloaded like that.
[Marie: Jeezy Creezy. I never expected a response such as that. And since text doesn't convey sarcasm well, I can hardly discern how much of your indignation is real. Seriously, though, have I ever criticized your song choices? I've only made snarky remarks about the homogeneity of genres: metal with the occassional electronic song and possibly some classic rock. I have much respect for those types of music- after all, I've got Rage, Rammstein, Massive Attack, Ozzy, Guns N' Roses, Disturbed, SoaD, Butthole Surfers, and Eminem on my iPod as well as classical, opera, country, folk, and Arabic pop (reminder: I am a music lover, not a terrorist). I am also pretentious and love to brag about the esoteric bands, artists, and songs I've run across. And I'm not so shallow or musically-fixated as to like and respect individuals solely for their taste in music; obviously, music plays a much more important role in your life than mine. So I'm not going to lecture any more about it.]
Next week: The Season Finale
Responses posted on 06/22/07
Comment Submitted by Brian Re: "TBF: Feminism":
I feel like I made my own version of Grindhouse..
I laughed, I cried, I wanted to take a pee break but I couldn't.... Perfect!!!
I loved how this turned out, especially since I got to make a two-parter TBF, and honestly, I've been really wanting to do something like this since the TBF site came online..
------------------------------------------------------------
Author's Correction: Submitted by Jacob Re: "TBF: Feminism (Part 1)":
The book I reference, "Are Men Really Necessary?," is actually titled, "Are Men Necessary?" Apologies on any confusion this may have caused.
Response From Brian: I didn't notice... Had you not said anything, I don't think anybody would've either...
[Marie: Soon as I read that, Jacob, I altered the title in TBF blog version of your article.]
------------------------------------------------------------
Comment Submitted by Jacob Re: "TBF: Feminism (Part 2)":
Er, just a bit of a typo, I think. I assume when you write, "After all, isn't that when we most loudly heard the voice of Gloria Steinem and her ilk proclaiming those of us not in possession of a penis to be considered second-class citizens?," that you actually mean, "After all, isn't that when we most loudly heard the voice of Gloria Steinem and her ilk proclaiming those of us not in possession of a penis not to be considered second-class citizens?" (or some similar inverted phrasing), correct?
Also, one amusing note: Hugh Hefner, Larry Flynt, et al. -- while being decried by some feminists (and embraced by others) -- are more liberal than even most of the liberal politicians. In fact, both of them (I believe; I'm dead certain about Hef, at least), are major supporters of "pro choice" and other women's organizations, and have wielded some large amounts of their considerable assets towards helping them out. It's unlikely that you'll ever see, "Sponsored by Hustler Magazine!" on the front page of Planned Parenthood, but it is an amusing anecdote to make a personal mental note of who one of the biggest men behind the curtain is (no pun about Flynt intended).
Also, nice essay. Interesting history, some good points, and clever narrative. God job, wot wot, and not really in opposition to my own, no matter how Brian would like to cast it that way. ;)
Response from Harlean:
Good observation, and I can see how the "second-class citizen" line could be interpreted as having contained a typo, but in fact I did mean it exactly the way it was written. That was a big part of the reason why the Feminist Movement of the 70's got as loud and ugly as it did, the fact that women were suddenly being told that the world thought of them as second-class citizens, and they should be grateful to NOW for bringing this to their attention because God knows all of that decent happy living they were doing, and focusing on the good of their families and not having to haul their asses out of bed to catch the morning train to a job that probably wasn't half as rewarding as hearing a child say "Mommy look what I made for you in school today!" could be, well, all of that had done terribly misleading things to the minds of so many women who up until that point had probably been thinking they were living pretty good lives. So the Steinems and Freidans of the world were kind enough to let them know that their lives did, in fact, totally suck because they weren't as good as any man in the eyes of the people who really mattered, those people being, um, well, complete strangers for the most part, but you know, those people's opinions matter FAR more than the opinions of the people who live with and love you, don't they?!
And yes, I agree with your take on the whole He Said She Said thing, since you and I are basically presenting two angles of the same story, that story being that the "feminists" of today are sadly lacking in both definition and direction.
And now I will sign off before I end up writing another 3000 words... ;)
Response From Brian: DAMN! I'm glad we came up with this idea. Marie and I are fuckin geniuses. Say it with me Marie: Woo!!
------------------------------------------------------------
Marie's thus far unofficial addition to this week's "Echoes" (because she was too busy/lazy to write anything this past week):
Since quotes are all the rage on this topic, I shall begin with one myself: "Enough ink has been spilled in the quarreling over feminism, now practically over, and perhaps we should say no more about it." -Simone de Beauvoir, Introduction, The Second Sex.
Perhaps enough has been said about feminism. The vast majority of the American population seems to have tired of this topic, save for Feminist Studies majors and Jacob and Harlean and Brian. In my mind, the particular cause of feminism and its historic denotations should be left behind. I'm not narrow-minded enough to think that the (arguably) inferior treatment of females is the be-all and end-all or even most important aspect in humankinds' struggle for equality. Sure, I feel that the institutionalized partiarchy of American society is keeping women down as a group, but so many women have benefitted from this and previous generations' battle for equal treatment of women. The glass ceiling has been shattered- in word if not in deed- and only time and education (and maybe a governmental shift back to secular liberalism) will let us fulfill our hard-won place alongside men.
The label of feminism should be retired. Not because there is universal gender equality nor because females are inherently inferior, but because every single human that exists suffers from exclusion and inequal treatment. Equality shouldn't be the sole fight of one faction; it should be a concerted movement of everyone. Women, men, the poor, the ill, the weak, etc. all share the goal of being heard and being respected. Why compartmentalize oppression? Do the Romani have a monopoly of suffering? The Jews? The deaf?
The oppressors that these groups rebel against have also suffered inequality. Perhaps not as blatant or prolonged mistreatment, but I'm willing to say that every individual with an active role in propagating discrimination against one or more of his fellow human beings has experienced a lack of power. If not because of ethnicity or beliefs, than simply because he or she was once a child. Every large political, religious, or other kind of system that I have heard of considers children as inferior and treats them as such. (This may be confusing things, but, philosophically, I agree that children are inferior to older individuals simply because they don't have comparable knowledge, experience, and reason. Those lacks of qualities shouldn't justify treating them as pets or annoyances or objects instead of the young people they are.) Thus, if changes are to be made concerning the treatment/mistreatment of a particular sect of people, changes will have to be made concerning pretty much every other aspect in human societies.
Everyone should unite in the fight for general equality. Call it "universal human rights" or "anthroism" or whatever, but factions like the feminists and gay rights activists and ethnic minorities should work together against every type of oppression together. Realistically, oppression may be impossible to abolish. Though I may be a dreamer I am far from being the only one (to paraphrase a poet-activist for equality), and dreamers are what began the successful civil rights movements throughout history.
------------------------------------------------------------
Comment/ Question Submitted by Jacob Re: "Soundboard: Heading into the home stretch":
Brian: "Congratulations to Harlean & Jacob on an exceptional TBF this week. Not only did they do a great job, they gave us the highest ratings of the season!!"
Jacob: No problemo. But ratings where?
Response from Brian: I'll have Marie explain it all to you later... Mainly cause I don't know either.
[Marie: TBF blog has a stat counter. I think that's what Brian was referring to.]
------------------------------------------------------------
Comment Submitted by Jacob Re: Harlean's Song: "Ode de Toilet":
Oh heavenly flying spaghetti monster, not country music!? That's just too far!
But seriously, this reminds me of a recent post I did on the ideal treatment of toilet seats based on game theory models to maximize equality. (Summary for people who might be scared away by equations and logic: the mathematically ideal situation exists when men lower the seat half the time (say, they don't lower it in the morning but they do at night).) It's
actually interesting reading, and very tongue-in-cheek, given the subject matter, doncha know.
Response from Brian: Okay, on the first part, let me just say this: Preach on!!! Did you read what Marie added on?:
[Marie: Awesome choice, HC! *smirk* I'm happy to have help opening these guys' minds to new genres. Variety is the spice of life, they say, and Brian's getting pretty bland. Brian! Don't take the CD player into the shower! *sigh* He needs a keeper sometimes.]
Brian: Okay, that hurt..
No, seriously, all bullshit aside.. That wasn't cool.
You want to make fun of me? I'm cool with that. Believe me, I've heard and felt alot worse from people over the years. So all this.. the jokes, the jabs, it's all fine with me.
But seriously don't ever...EVER!! insult my choices in music. And don't assume that everything I've shared is simply everything to me, cause if you think all this is all I am...
THEN YOU DON'T EVEN REALLY KNOW ME AT ALL...
Now I am sorry that I unloaded like that.
[Marie: Jeezy Creezy. I never expected a response such as that. And since text doesn't convey sarcasm well, I can hardly discern how much of your indignation is real. Seriously, though, have I ever criticized your song choices? I've only made snarky remarks about the homogeneity of genres: metal with the occassional electronic song and possibly some classic rock. I have much respect for those types of music- after all, I've got Rage, Rammstein, Massive Attack, Ozzy, Guns N' Roses, Disturbed, SoaD, Butthole Surfers, and Eminem on my iPod as well as classical, opera, country, folk, and Arabic pop (reminder: I am a music lover, not a terrorist). I am also pretentious and love to brag about the esoteric bands, artists, and songs I've run across. And I'm not so shallow or musically-fixated as to like and respect individuals solely for their taste in music; obviously, music plays a much more important role in your life than mine. So I'm not going to lecture any more about it.]
Next week: The Season Finale
Labels: Echoes
posted by Marie at 10:59 PM
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